Does Phoenix Need To Change?
Last night, had some great conversation at Gangplank Hacknight with Remi Taylor, Chuck Reynolds, Ed Nusbaum, Mark Ng, Steve Swedler, Byron Bowerman, Ryan Gasparini, Mike Benner and William Bradley about how we can stop making excuses about the environment we have and instead start leveraging it do bigger and better things. We were talking about downtown’s and inferiority complexes that exist and went to the numbers to do some fact checking. Ed acted as the Jeopardy master. Some interesting data.
1. Only California and Texas have more cities in the Top 50 cities by population.
2. The only two cities larger than Phoenix, Mesa, Glendale, Chandler, Scottsdale, Gilbert, Tempe and Peoria combined are NEW YORK and LOS ANGELES. As a metro area Phoenix is #3 not #5.
3. Mesa has a higher population than Kansas City, Cleveland, Miami, Oakland, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Tampa and Pittsburg.
4. Chandler has a higher population than Orlando, Reno and Salt Lake City.
So you can see when I make the argument “which downtown“? It’s really not all that absurd.
What’s the point? The point is we might not have the urban density that many people clamor for, but the truth is the majority of the population here might not want it. I think we are unique so we can’t look to other cities for how to solve our problems. We need to create solutions unique to the people and challenges here. It might just be time that we stop trying to pull everyone into a single central location and instead start thinking of Glendale, Chandler, Mesa, Gilbert and Scottsdale as cities in their own right, with their own identities.
So, yesterday morning I attended the Arizona Technology Council’s Progress Forum. This event highlighted all that the council has been doing for it’s members in the last sixth months. At the end, President Steve Zylstra, asked what more they could be doing to help. One of the topics that had been discussed was an inadequate talent pool. I made the point that companies go to where the people are and if we aren’t keeping the people we have and attracting new people to our talent pool it is a very grim long term picture. However, it is nice to note that San Francisco isn’t safe either. For example Joe Stump the technical lead for Digg recently left for Boulder, CO and Alex Payne a technical lead at Twitter has voiced that he plans to leave for Portland, OR as soon as possible.
I asked the council what they were doing about the following things:
Universities
Chandler a city larger than Salt Lake City yet has no universities. Mesa a city larger than Pittsburgh has only a satellite campus of a Arizona State University. Put that in perspective, Pittsburgh has at least two major universities Carnegie Mellon and University of Pittsburgh. We don’t need more ASU campuses, we need more universities. Competition is a good thing. We need a university dedicated to technology not a megalith that wants to be all things to all graduates. The council indicated that they were talking with M.I.T about potentially putting a campus here. Additionally they mentioned talking to Grand Canyon University and working with them to get an engineering program in place.
Immigration
Arizona has astigmatism for being unfriendly to immigrants. Granted, being against the Mexico border we see lots of illegal immigration that isn’t always productive. However, this puts it even higher on our priority to fix immigration and by fixing I don’t mean stopping. I mean increasing. Significantly increasing. We need to be doing things to attract talent from outside this country. We need to be providing ways for students that come to our universities to stay and work after they graduate. Allowing easier LEGAL immigration will help curb and make enforcement of ILLEGAL immigration. 16% of high impact, high tech startups have at least 1 foreign born founder. So, where does the council stand on allowing people to immigrate here? Where does it stand of the founders visa?
Culture
We struggle with our identity. We project to the world that we are a bunch of gun toting senior citizens, that wear cowboy boots and hats and suffer through 140 degree summers. When it comes to business we have a reputation for being the scam center of the universe. While there might be a hint of truth each of these things, we aren’t telling people about how it’s October and we still are wearing shorts, t-shirts and flip flops. We aren’t telling them about Sedona, Prescott, Payson, Flagstaff, the Grand Canyon and other things we take for granted. We might not have great public transportation yet, but we do have average commute times under 25 minutes compared to nearly 35 minute average commute times in Boston, LA, San Francisco and New York. For our size we have a low cost of living and affordable house prices. It would be a loaded question to ask the council how they are going to change the culture here, but I think it’s fair for each of us to ask ourselves.
Now many might say why do we need to change anything? We need to change something because the economies that built what we have today, land development and tourism, will not be significantly rebounding in the next decade. We will experience a rather unpleasant adjustment if we are not able to institute new economies. Attracting and keeping talent for new economies will require some adjustments.
If this kind of stuff interests you hit me up on twitter @dneighbors or drop me an email. I would like to start having more conversations like last night and start getting people involved in making a difference.
More from Derek Neighbors
- Gangplank in Downtown Phoenix
- Some Thoughts on the Future of Gangplank
- Commentary on Whats Wrong With Downtown Phoenix
- Make a Mark on Your Customers
- Successful Startups Need Supportive Communities
You Might Also Be Interested In
- TEDx is Coming to Phoenix! (Tomas Carrillo)
- Response to Thoughts on Gangplank (Chris Conrey)
- The Phoenix Tech Community (Brian Shaler)
Tags: arizona, chandler, economic development, Gangplank, gilbert, hacknight, phoenix
Comments (12)
![Recommend [dneighbors]](http://s3.amazonaws.com/arkayne-media/img/badge/logo-recommend-badge-small.png){kind=icon}
Nice post Derek. I really liked the points you made about culture. I definitely don’t think we present ourselves in the best light. There are great things about Arizona that we definitely don’t leverage. The 140 degree temps conversation is typical of exchanges I have when talking with folks outside AZ. I also found your numbers regarding cities/universities enlightening.
Great post, Derek. One of the things that comes to my mind as a resident of the greater Phoenix area is that the vast majority of us lack an identity as a Phoenician (or other resident). A lot of us still see ourselves as “from Chicago”, “from New York”, etc.
After reading your post, I wonder if we need to change our identities, and take pride in being a resident of the valley.
Hope this makes SOME sense. Would love to follow this conversation.
Gee, if only there was some panel you could discuss this with.
We DEFINITELY need more schools here, but will the legislature choose to fund them?
You’re saying our metro area is bigger than Chicagoland? Dallas? Atlanta? San Francisco? I’m not sure where you’re getting your data from.
That being said, you make some great points. I hope that more people can continue to have these conversations around the Valley. I know lots of us are doing downtown — downtown Phoenix!
I think there might be some apples to oranges comparisons of cities to metro areas in your post, but think your other points still stand.
There is a lot more in the Valley than most people realize, but there is a lot more that needs to happen on an infrastructure and governmental level to help it mature. As long as the local municipalities squabble rather than collaborating I’m not sure how many of the larger items you mentioned can materialize.
As a Phoenix native and home owner in the Historic Coronado District, I’m calling you out on this hypocrisy: You think one needs to specify “which downtown” in Phoenix, while at the same time its fine for events to be promoted or labeled as “Phoenix” while hosting them in Tempe, Gilbert and Mesa. That is what myself and others are laughing about.
I guess it must have really bothered you that someone didn’t take you seriously, so you created an ad-hoc committee of people who don’t actually live in Central Phoenix to talk about its Downtown and use the web to justify your bias: http://derekneighbors.com/2008/12/gangplank-in-downtown-phoenix/ – that’s rich!
Back to the Twitter thread: My opinion is that one can’t be serious to actually think those of us who set our location to “Phoenix” need to clarify “which downtown”: http://twitter.com/mattwynn/status/4634061199
I love Gangplank: it keeps the self-proclaimed haters far away from our Downtown.
One community needs to take the bull by the horns, as Scottsdale used to, and become the place people think highly of when they think of AZ. That used to be Scottsdale, because of the resorts and the western environment.
Well, now that’s watered down and there’s no city with a distinctive environment. Ed and I tried to do it with Tempe several years ago by making it the Tech Oasis, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside. So maybe it’s Chandler’s moment. Or Gilbert’s. Or Mesa’s.
Logically, it’s the East Valley. There is, after all, ASU, ATStill University in Mesa, Williams Gateway Campus, WIU, etc. That’s better than any other part of the Valley.
And education is all going online, so don’t place so much emphasis on university campi. That’s so last century. We have plenty of education.
It’s a branding issue. Phoenix is kind of a default brand. But we can aggregate stuff anywhere enough people are willing to collaborate around a brand promise, not just a tag line. A real one. One we can deliver on.
Why do you continue to hold these conversations after my bed time?
“I’m calling you out on this hypocrisy: You think one needs to specify “which downtown” in Phoenix, while at the same time its fine for events to be promoted or labeled as “Phoenix” while hosting them in Tempe, Gilbert and Mesa. That is what myself and others are laughing about.”
Two distinct issues. I have never said that Phoenix wasn’t the largest downtown. Just because “Phoenix” is the moniker that people use to talk about the Metro Phoenix area doesn’t mean that just saying “downtown” means downtown phoenix especially if the conversation is happening in another city that has what they call a “downtown”.
I am actually suggesting in the post that perhaps the cities should get their own identities. If that were to happen maybe the marketing machine would stop using “Phoenix” as the generic regional term and instead come up with something better? Maybe it’s a horrible idea altogether.
“I guess it must have really bothered you that someone didn’t take you seriously, so you created an ad-hoc committee of people who don’t actually live in Central Phoenix to talk about its Downtown and use the web to justify your bias”
This is a pretty big stretch. Seeing how no one called anyone together for anything. We were simply hanging out at hacknight. Everyone had a beer or two and was playing rockband. Conversation came up from someone other than me about an event (WordCamp) and we started talking about the state of things.
The truth is we barely talked about downtown Phoenix, but when we did there were way more accolades given to than there were negatives. I was merely one person in a conversation of many. I do have biases but I generally make them quite clear unlike most people in such discussions.
“Well, now that’s watered down and there’s no city with a distinctive environment. Ed and I tried to do it with Tempe several years ago by making it the Tech Oasis, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside. So maybe it’s Chandler’s moment. Or Gilbert’s. Or Mesa’s.”
I think the community that steps up on the technology side will get support fairly quickly. It’s a big commitment for who ever does it.
“Logically, it’s the East Valley. There is, after all, ASU, ATStill University in Mesa, Williams Gateway Campus, WIU, etc. That’s better than any other part of the Valley.”
I would throw an opinion in here, but I think most people know where I sit on this one.
“And education is all going online, so don’t place so much emphasis on university campi. That’s so last century. We have plenty of education.”
Research and development is not done well as an online distributed function. Why it’s good for some education I think it is no substitute for a physical technical university. WIU or UofPhx for example could not fill the current void.
“It’s a branding issue. Phoenix is kind of a default brand. But we can aggregate stuff anywhere enough people are willing to collaborate around a brand promise, not just a tag line. A real one. One we can deliver on.”
There is probably something significant in this statement. I am no marketer. I fail at PR.
“Why do you continue to hold these conversations after my bed time?”
The truth is we need just let them run a little bit longer. Then you could bring Buppy out for his walk and join us first thing in the morning.
Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the US. The Phoenix MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) is the 12th largest. All major metros have this same branding issue. It is almost always resovled by using “Greater” Phoenix for instance. The world will never know Gilbert or Chandler the way they know Phoenix. Just go with it. I am from Jenison, MI. I never tell people that because they have never heard of it. So, I am from Grand Rapids, MI. Our airport is PHX and that is how we will always be known by outsiders. I live in downtown Phoenix and it is improving every day and will one day be a “real” downtown.
“Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the US. The Phoenix MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) is the 12th largest.”
I was going by clusters of Top 150 cities (not including suburbs), but it’s good to MSA data is there.
“All major metros have this same branding issue. It is almost always resovled by using “Greater” Phoenix for instance.”
Most, not all have this issue.
“The world will never know Gilbert or Chandler the way they know Phoenix. Just go with it.”
Most people know Tempe, Glendale and Scottsdale already.
“I live in downtown Phoenix and it is improving every day and will one day be a “real” downtown.”
It is certainly improving all the time, I would argue that it is already real.
Great post Derek! You make some good points.
I’ve always found it sad that Phoenix is the fifth largest city in America and lacks the diversity, culture and talent pool of other major metropolitan areas such as NY, LA, Chicago and the SF Bay Area. In addition, the tech startup culture in the greater Phoenix area suffers from a lack of VC funding, which I think hinders growth and tends to keep talent away.
To make matters worse, Phoenix and it’s surrounding cities now have one of the worst real estate markets in the country. It’s enough to make one want to get the hell out! But wait, they can’t sell their homes so they’re stuck.
You wrote, “The point is we might not have the urban density that many people clamor for, but the truth is the majority of the population here might not want it.”
I think you hit the nail on the head with this point. I think a lot of people like the small town feel that the entire area has and they may not want an urban city in Phoenix, Tempe, Chandler, Gilbert, Mesa or elsewhere for that matter. I’m not sure that Phoenix or the other surrounding cities can ever achieve an urban downtown that’s bustling day and night like the other metro cities I mentioned above.
Downtown Phoenix is pretty sleepy, but then again, so is Downtown San Jose, which is in the heart of Silicon Valley. But what Silicon Valley has over the greater Phoenix area is a bustling tech scene and a large talent pool. And the Bay Area has lots of major universities, including the top public university in the nation (UC Berkeley).
I certainly would like to see Phoenix grow it’s talent pool and improve it’s economic outlook, but when AZ voters rejected the technology transfer proposition (prop 102) back in 2004 it made me think that maybe the people of AZ don’t want that kind of change and growth. I personally think its rejection hurt the state in the long run.